1 Aug 13 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (9,332) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry intervenes in an exchange between Haines Brown and Paul Riesz in which the former has critiqued the latter's notion that reform via profit-sharing is the way to solve the problems of capitalism.
2 Aug 13 Paul Riesz (3,090) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Paul responds to Harry's critique of capitalism arguing that the only alternative to date -the USSR- was worse, and renews his call for reform.
3 Aug 14 Hartin, Tony (4,699) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Tony Hartin intervenes on the subject of the USSR and denounces reform for not solving the problems of capitalism's boom-bust character.
4 Aug 14 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (7,601) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry replies to Paul's demands for alternatives to capitalism, critiques Paul's notion of "human nature" and argues Marxism was only an ideology of domination in the USSR.
5 Aug 14 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (4,731) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Tony's comments and suggests that the capitalist crisis is due to workers' struggles rather than inefficiency.
6 Aug 14 Hugh Rodwell (10,434) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Hugh responds to Tony's comments and emphasizes the workers' ownership of the means of production in the USSR which he says made it non-capitalist and suggests discussion of the nature of the USSR deserves a thread of its own. He also renews his critique of capitalism and of profit-sharing as a dead-end.
7 Aug 14 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (16,992) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Hugh on the importance of "ownership" and suggests that the whole discussion is secondary to that of control and what control is used for. He also suggests that this is not the forum for a debate on the nature of the USSR and that the subject be dropped. He also responds to Hugh on firm behavior and the relationship to class struggle insisting on the centrality of the imposition of work and alienation.
8 Aug 14 Haines Brown (7,573) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines trys to clarify concepts and defines people's class roles in terms of their sources of income, critique's Paul's notion of human nature and discusses reform.
9 Aug 14 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: Forum on Labor in the Globa (12,173) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Haines' characterization of class in terms of income arguing for the centrality of work in defining class and that the "ambiguity" of some people's class status stems from the way they take different class roles at different times.
10 Aug 14 Paul Riesz (14,849) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Paul responds to Hugh's criticisms and defends profit-sharing as the best path to reform.
11 Aug 14 Hugh Rodwell (9,764) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Hugh responds to Harry on Leninism and rejects his formulation of the Soviet Union as state capitalist.
12 Aug 15 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (20,367) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry comments on Paul's response to Hugh and makes a few comments on the situation in the contemporary ex-USSR including the corrupt new leadership and the role of cooperatives. He also calls Paul's attention to the vast terrain of traditional brutal capitalism that co-exists with cutting-edge, high tech co-optive capitalism and also to the persistence of Fordist working conditions even within the high tech sector.
13 Aug 15 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (11,348) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds briefly to Hugh and refuses to continue arguing about the nature of the USSR in this forum.
14 Aug 15 Haines Brown (11,468) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines responds to Harry's critique of his basing class on income. In the process begins to discuss "work" in the language of physics --an exercise which will become a central issue in what follows.
15 Aug 15 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (22,168) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Haines and query's the meaning of his use of physics arguing that the essential issues of the imposition of work and resistance to it are not illuminated by Haines' approach. This is elaborated with respect to a number of other issues such as "exploitation" and "control."
16 Aug 16 Hugh Rodwell (6,989) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Hugh interjects an objection to the non-consideration of the landlord class in the discussion of class and capitalism.
17 Aug 15 Haines Brown (5,226) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines responses to Hugh on landlords and carries out a "wedding" of Marxism and Thermodynamics.
18 Aug 17 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (8,660) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Hugh that he didn't discuss landlords because it didn't seem germane to the issues at hand. He also argues against Hugh's analysis of "petit-bourgeois" because most of the kind of people Hugh describes essentially remain workers.
19 Aug 16 Gregory Schwartz (5,890) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Gregory intervenes in the debate about the USSR, agrees with Harry that this is not the proper forum and proceeds to lay out his own two kopeks worth on the subject, rejecting the notion of "state capitalism" and pointing out the need to take the state into account. 20 Aug 16 Haines Brown (2,418) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR In which Haines protests Gregory's caracturization of Paul.
21 Aug 17 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (12,645) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Gregory's critique of his analysis of state capitalism, arguing that Gregory begins with a false premise and most of his critique flows from it and thus is off target. In the process he responds to Gregory's dismissal of the production of "value" in the USSR spelling out what the concept denotes.
22 Aug 16 Charles Brown (2,475) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Charles argues that in feudalism the peasants didn't own a key means of production: land.
23 Aug 16 Haines Brown (2,431) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines says a few things in response to Charles on feudal land rights.
24 Aug 17 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (4,547) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry says a few things in response to Charles on feudal land rights.
25 Aug 16 Haines Brown (16,247) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines suggests that thermodynamic theory can help solve some old problems in political economy, especially that of "surplus". He query's Harry on his use of terms like antagonism and work and opts for the use of physics.
26 Aug 17 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (36,994) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry tries to explain to Haines --at some length-- why the the latter's use of the concepts of thermodynamics creates false problems and un-useful solutions. A variety of topics are discussed including: the labor theory of value, the notion of a surplus, logic, Marx and the environment, dialectical contradiction, the historical character of the concept "work", the reproduction of labor power, pensioners and petit-bourgeois --all in response to various aspects of Haines previous post.
27 Aug 16 Paul Riesz (10,574) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Paul caricatures his interlocutors as true believers and attacks Harry's characterization of capitalism while defending profit sharing and his use of the term "human nature."
28 Aug 17 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (28,459) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry objects to Paul's rhetoric and responds to his criticisms including the reform/revolution, Jane Austen, the inquisition, Soviet economic organization, the Zapatistas, the working week, the question of work and Keynesianism.
29 Aug 17 Sam Lanfranco (2,916) LABOR-L and 2000 Lines on A Sunday!
In which labor-l list moderator suggests that interventions should be shorter.
30 Aug 17 Haines Brown (1,749) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines responds sympathetically to Sam's admonition and decides to meditate off-line on Harry's most recent comments.
31 Aug 17 Haines Brown (8,422) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines responds to Paul with a jocular and sarcastic recasting of things in Paul's terms of "pragmatic approaches."
32 Aug 18 Gregory Schwartz (12,892) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Gregory responds to Harry's comments acusing him of the same sins of which he had accused Gregory: misinterpreting what was said and elaborating responses to non-issues. He denies being a Leninist and says he recognizes the importance of all sorts of struggles, not just those against the state. He questions the power of the IMF in Russia and recommends books on Russia restructuration.
33 Aug 18 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: Forum on Labor in the Globa (15,906) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Gregory's comments agreeing that more care should be taken to be sure of what the other means. He then takes up some of the issues Gregory raised including the issue of IMF power and workers' resistance agreeing about the importance of the latter and pointing out that IMF structural adjustment programs include not only industrial restructuring but macro policies.
34 Aug 18 Haines Brown (7,695) CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Haines, after due consideration, returns to try another explanation of his use of thermodynamics to understand the issues raised by Marxist theory.
35 Aug 19 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (17,113) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry thinks he has finally understook Haines use of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics but argues that its use to deal with the problem of surplus value/labor doesn't get us anywhere and offers another interpretation in terms of the struggle over work.
36 Aug 18 Paul Riesz (6,050) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Paul responds to Harry's criticisms of his rhetoric and defends his reformism by pointing to successful reforms and failed revolutions. He also argues the Zapatistas are being repressed only out of "bad judgement" by the Mexican government.
37 Aug 18 Paul Riesz (5,925) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Paul explains "some of the reasons for feeling that" Harry distorts and/or neglects some of Paul's arguments re: profit sharing, capitalism and Keynesianism.
38 Aug 19 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (14,314) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to Paul on "facts", reform/revolution, socialism, the Zapatistas & Mexican repression, and listening.
39 Aug 19 [FROM: Harry Cleaver] To: LABOR-L@YORKU.CA (12,493) Re: CAPITAL vs. LABOR
In which Harry responds to the charges of distortion and neglect, partly by explaining how Paul was misreading what he had said previously.